Shallow, Deep, Gentleman, Creep.....

[dwivian]

Post prompts gleaned from this poll. Feel free to ask something if you haven't.

I don't think I can lead into this post without the prompt question. I say this after several attempts... so, here's what I'm working with:

How can you live with yourself, being so shallow? And, knowing people think you're a creep?

Hm. Well, that's a tough one. But, not for why you may think. I'm not about to deny the impressions of others, but I am concerned about the question itself.

First -- the concept of shallowness. Da elf and I were talking about it, and we came to the combined conclusion that people are seen as shallow if they have an acknowledged preference that is aligned with that of their reference culture, and are considered deep if they evidence a preference in opposition to cultural norms. Thus, being "deep" is directly proportional to cultural non-conformity.

That reminds me of South Park, for some reason.

Now, when we discuss homosexuality, we make a point to separate the concepts of attraction and action. This is, in part, to discuss the issues arising from selected celibacy by people having preferences that differ from their morality. A side effect of accepting this position is that it clearly indicates that one cannot change what one sees as attractive, thus revealing that preferences are part of who you are, and not something you should monkey with. In fact, we make light of people that are in denial about their inclinations, claiming that rabid homophobes are really closeted homosexuals. Inclinations are inherent.

Da elf and I then talked about the fact, and yes it is a fact, that I prefer the appearance of women that are not significantly obese. This is one way I can be seen to be shallow (as some of the larger people I know have said). I freely acknowledge this preference, and that it is not universal, but merely my own. As proof of the diversity of beholders of beauty, someone we know prefers women that are much larger (and has stated that da elf is too scrawny to be attractive). However, I have never heard anyone say that he is shallow for this preference. Why? Because it's not the cultural norm, and thus shows his vision beyond that of our society.

Except, we just said that preferences are inherent. Oops.

So, there is no magic depth of vision, just the original difference of opinion. Now, if we stop there, we might decide that this aspect of shallowness is more about making judgment calls on appearance. But, I know quite a few physically beautiful people that I am not attracted to. Does that mean I'm not shallow, as appearance alone isn't enough? Or is the fact that I ever judge based on appearance keep me firmly in the shallow camp? And, how does that differ from others? Our friend has a stated appearance preference, after all.

Does it matter that the absolute FIRST interest I have is that a person be in the key of F or A? This is a quality outside of those society holds dear, and something I can't easily express to those that don't hear what they see, but it matters as those tones are a delight to me. Is that less shallow, or just differently so? It stands to reason that it can't be counter to the conformist world since there isn't a consensus of what sound beautiful people are supposed to make. In this case, I think it stands apart from any depth or shallowness.

I suppose I should come clean (as much as a short list can) and make it known that my preferences are for a small to medium build, dark hair from red to deep brown, dark green hazel or brown eyes, a proportional but full figure, brilliance in areas in which I share significant mental interests and serious intellectual depth elsewhere, strong passions, a pleasing voice, positive interactions with others, wicked imagination and wit, socially progressive personal philosophies, an openness to growth and learning, and the ability to carry off the impression that they have some interest in me.

Yeah, one of my measures of attraction is if the other person seems attracted to me. That means I judge people over time, as it isn't easy to detect how others see you, unless they are somewhat forward. And, this means my initial impressions are quickly modified by how people act to me and others. I suppose I would seem shallow in that I am more inclined to approach people that attract me, but after that the other factors take over.

Does it make me less shallow that I expect others to hold my interest intellectually? That I'm not only about arm candy? Does it reflect better on me that da elf doesn't hold all the qualities I prefer? Or, is it just the way relationships go? Hard to say -- I have had a few of them, and nobody was a "perfect match", so my experience seems to be so.

Now, I previously said I couldn't debate the impressions others have. And, this is true. If you think I'm a creep for whatever reasons you have, that is your concern. I know that I've met quite a few people that are "off-putting" to me, some for reasons I can't discern, and others for matching traits that have been part of people that did end up making me uncomfortable or causing harm. I can elect to ignore these traits in an effort to get closer to people, and put myself at risk again, or I can close myself off and be safe, but miss the occasional "false positive". It's all about managing that risk to a level I find comfortable. And, that's what you do, too.

So, how do I live with myself? Hm.... never really thought about it, honestly. I don't live to be deep, or to be an ideal to my world audience. I live to have a good time, enjoying the creation that is my home, while bringing as many good experiences as I can to my children and those in my acquaintance. If the way I do this seems creepy to you, feel free to find other people to enrich in your own life, or if I'm important to you, work with me to find a way to seem less creepy to you (by changing your expectations or my actions). I really don't mind -- growth is a good thing, no matter how old you get!

Comments

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

There's actually a Wikipedia entry about being shallow!

When someone called you sexist, I was able to see some actions/opinions of yours that could be perceived as such. But shallow... that one I'm having a hard time with. You do express appreciation of people's forms, but doesn't everyone? Perhaps your attraction is strongly typed-- that is, you can actually state what your preferences are for someone's figure, and they're in a relatively narrow range.

You're also unequivocally a breast man, and you'll express appreciation in that regard even if a woman doesn't meet many of your other criteria. That could be what they're referring to.

[dwivian]

Possibly.... it is cheaper than a shoe fetish, after all....

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

And a woman can choose her shoes. It's more difficult to choose her cup size. ;)

[elfgirl.livejournal.com]

And even more difficult to just go out and get a new pair when you get bored with the old ones. ;)

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

Indeed. ;) I wonder if that's a way we (consciously or unconsciously) judge people as shallow-- their attraction towards aspects that are out of someone's control, or that are difficult to control.

Wow

[allessindra.livejournal.com]

I think what boggles me more is that someone would be *that* judgemental. I can't remember if you set it up that someone could post questions anonymously. Kudos to you for taking it seriously and answering calmly. I'd have blown them off. And not in a fun way.

Re: Wow

[dwivian]

Most people are that judgemental. They just don't tell you directly.

Or, am I a cynic? ;)

All questions are considered serious, so that I can see if they take me to interesting spaces inside myself.

And, this question was not anonymous. I think it is possible to leave an anonymous comment, but even if not, that's no big deal to me. I'm still upfront about my life.

Creepy

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Ok, I will say that meeting you at Dragoncon (when you were dressed as Steve (from Blue's Clues) was maybe a little creepy. ::laugh:: I think it was the stuffed dog that was to blame.

Re: Creepy

[dwivian]

You didn't like Blue?!?!?!?!

Now, that *IS* creepy! ::wink::

It was a weird costume. It had pants.

[ann-mcn.livejournal.com]

I am appalled at such a vicious "question." That is the sort of thing you hope you will never experience again, once you get out of high school. I admire your patience and graciousness in the way you answered.

Is there a reason you interpreted shallow and creepy to be about your preferences in the women you are attracted to? Not that I think the words apply to you in other areas!

I think shallowness isn't so much knowing what you like or dislike, but is in not even knowing what you like -- being controlled by what the media promote as attractive. Refusing to talk with or hire a person who did not fit your standards of attractiveness would be shallow.

Frankly, even when I was young and trim, I never have expected every man to desire me -- I don't desire every man, either. You haven't snubbed me as a human being because I'm older and stouter than you choose, and that is how it ought to be.

[dwivian]

The reason I took it this way was the "creep" comment. That is often used to discuss overly forward and letcherous types (I'm, I hope, more of a leering curmudgeon). In that context, I answered from the relationship standpoint.

I suppose it could have been applied to intellectual creepiness, but don't we have other terms for that? Smug? Know-it-All? Troll? All good words that imply creepiness, but are used instead....

I'd like to think that I move beyond appearance quickly enough, but I am also willing to admit it has a significant impact on parts of how I see the world. And, I don't really mind. Pretty people are shiny!

[ann-mcn.livejournal.com]

Yeah, pretty people are shiny, but they often are merely esthetically pleasing to me, but not attractive, if the distinction makes sense?

Anyhoo, you have been admirable in your answering. I salute you!

[shes-precious.livejournal.com]

I personally have never found you to be shallow. In fact, you're quite deep. I like the way you stimulate thinking. I admire your intelligence and I listen to your philosophies on life even when I do not agree.

Do you make social blunders? Of course, who doesn't? Quite possibly other folks who are being so judgmental might need to take a look inside themselves. I happen to be pretty proud of the fact that you've been doing a lot of hard internal work the last couple of years. That shows maturity and growth and it's something a lot of people aren't willing to do. People also don't seem to be able to give other people the benefit of the doubt or to forgive them their errors in judgment. That says more about those people than they'd probably be willing to hear.

Creepy? The only reason people have assumed that is because of the lies of someone who has since shown herself out to be manipulative, deceitful and dishonest to her now ex-husband. I think even he might reconsider that situation now given the information he since learned about her. Personally I always got some heavy negative vibes off her and never trusted her judgment or her relaying of facts to begin with.

I'm not trying to stir up drama, just musing and relating.

Personally I am proud of you and your growth. Are you perfect? No. None of us are. Are you trying? Yes. And that, dear, is all the difference in the world.

[dwivian]

I appreciate your comments, and yes I do remember that particular person. This question might have arisen from that poison, but I can't say. It could be personal opinion based on their worldviews and my actions, which is a fair cop.

I have good people around me, so I don't worry too much about what the fringe thinks. And, that may be the best response of all.

[muffle1969.livejournal.com]

Wow.

Never really considered you shallow, and I've known you a long time.

I think there are some things you've done which could go in the "perceived as creepy" category, but I don't think that makes you a creepy person. Besides, I've known you for 20 years...there was bound to be SOMETHING kinda creepy in there someplace.

Given how deeply you actually think things through, though, I'm not sure how someone could come up with the idea of you being shallow.

Oh well...opinions, ya know.

[dwivian]

What, popping up from under a table wasn't creep enough? Sheesh... I'm slipping....

I think things through BECAUSE of a personal issue I have with seeming shallow -- I have my initial reaction to situations, and it's almost always simplistic. Da elf has taught me to stop, evaluate, and then determine where to take things. Then she kicks me for screwing it up anyway.

[sicarii.livejournal.com]

Unless there's something horribly creepy that you've done that we all don't know about, you don't seem creepy to me.. a little weird, but not creepy. But we're all a little weird in one way or another.

P.S. I'm not attracted to fat chicks either.

[dwivian]

Hm.... I'm not sure of any hidden creepiness in my world, but I'll double check. I am overly concerned with the women in my acquaintance, but I chalk that up to a grandfather that taught me to look out for others. And, rather than end up with a zombie relative stalking me, I keep those lessons well. I tend to be too much of the "white knight", though, so I've learned to temper things a bit, when I can, but it really twists me to not offer to help, ya know?

Wait a minute…..

[jediclampett.livejournal.com]

I get the strong feeling that the original query was intentionally provocative. To make a judgement on the nature of someone on the basis of what they do or do not find attractive is disingenuous at best, if not down right mean.

Taking the “exclusion = shallow” argument to its conclusion, I am the epitome of shallow because I am exclusively attracted to fat women and have been from the dawn of my sexual awakening, as those who know me can readily attest.

Upon reflection, I realize the majority of women I’ve “dated.” – to use a profoundly sanitary euphemism for what I did during my wider days – were well over 200 lbs. I wouldn’t give the time of day to these anorexic waifs that are deemed attractive in this time and place. I want a woman, a large woman who I feel I am not going to break and stands a reasonable chance to survive the mating.

A good 80% of the women I see make me utter the phrase “I sorry. What I consider foreplay would be lethal to you.” Am I “creepy” because of this? Frankly I don’t know. And I don’t care. I am nationally ranked in not giving a damn. I used to care about the ideas and opinions of others. It tore me up. I’ve lain that aside. And I am better for it. I no longer live in fear; those who cross me live in fear.

I have known the Host of this particular journal for almost twenty years. For a man of his intelligence, compassion and empathy to give one ounce of consideration to the opinions of a small-minded, back biting, steaming pile of cretin is to my mind, tragic. Of course they ask how you can live with your shallow self, that’s what they think of themselves. They are cowardly, inconsequential and beneath notice. You are better than they are. The only reason that they will vomit their opinions from the darkness of anonymity is that, since dueling has falling from vogue, there is no physical consequence for dribbling insulting verbiage.

Re: Wait a minute…..

[dwivian]

Hm.....

Are you saying that my decision to respond to the opinions of another, even when that opinion is quite different from my own, is tragic?

An interesting thought. I may be better than others, but that does not make them beneath me. All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. In that world, I seek to better myself, and sometimes that happens as I consider the views of others, to provide insight into how I see myself.

Discernment can come from many prompts. I take no insult from it, for to do so would be to gift that opinion with my emotions, and even anger exceeds what that question was due. No, it needed simple, cold reason.

And, I did learn about myself from the attempted injury. That's not a bad thing.

Opinion is one thing, evil is quite another

[jediclampett.livejournal.com]

You are making an equivalence between an honest inquiry, a factual argument if you will, and a provocative statement designed to elicit a response, the more painful the better. The former is an opportunity for growth, the latter something to be opposed. And I am not completely opposed to the idea of standing against such violently and passionately. But the nature of violence is a whole other argument best left for another forum.

Nevertheless, that you can transform hurtful intention into a positive thing is a sign of your superiority. I disagree with you that discernment comes from “many prompts.” It comes from within. That you possess this trait is again a mark of a something higher, something that the majority of people, like the initiator of the query, will never have. If that doesn’t make you better, what does? Is there no ideal to hold up? There are many kinds of better, and there should be no fear in recognizing them, openly and honestly. The brilliance of diamonds is not diminished by the existence of rubies. And, to extend the metaphor, rubies and diamonds should be brave enough to call dirt, dirt.

And yes, all have sinned and are equal in the eyes of God. But that says nothing of the relative superiority among individuals here and now. The idea that the Lord’s flock is make up of helpless, newborn lambs unable to do anything is asinine. That Flock is sprinkled with many large, powerful rams who are ready, willing, and able to defend the realm.